Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Aerunis » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:31 am

I'm here as well, making a farewell post to these forums. This guild was by far the best I'd ever been in and was an amazing experience for me. I formed many ties amongst the various members while contributing to and helping the guild however I could. I loved it here and I will never forget my time here. I hope we stay close friends no matter the guild we're in.

Goodbye n Farewell~
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Naxos » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Levvy wrote:In regards to Levont's words, we unfortunately feel that this is just another example of miscommunication between the leader and officer of Resonanze. Altruism works differently, in the sense that our leader is not the sole decision maker. Levont does not make the final decisions, and she is well aware of this. We have a group of senior members who decide as a counsel group. What we decided on was that our two guilds would not be official partnered guilds, as had been brought up as a possibility before. We felt that a partnership at that particular point would be awkward with the existing tension between us. At no point did we say there could not be friendship between the two guilds.


Actually this is something that I got confused on personally, considering I asked Levont the possibility of a guild partnership and close contacts, but was told it was voted and that it wasn't possible. Then I was told that friendship between the two guilds were likely not to be possible at this point. If that was a misunderstanding, then all the better. The context at the time certainly didn't help in making it clear on the moment.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Arianamue » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:12 pm

I (as an individual) want to thank everyone who posted in this thread, contributing to at least a start of reconcilement.

As Leader of Resonanze I see that the members of Altruism cannot agree to my actions nor to my reasoning. I understand and accept that but I hope I could make you see how things looked from my side and maybe made you even understand some of my thoughts even if you would have acted differently when in my shoes.

Forgive me once again if I will pick only some sentences of your reply. I don't mean to take anything out of context but I don't want to make this another jumbo post, because I know nobody likes text walls.
To the readers I recommend having a second tab open in your browser to lookup the respective passage in the quoted post, before you read my words on it.

Levvy wrote:First of all, we would like to point out how happy we are that some misunderstandings are cleared up. Hurt feelings may remain for awhile, but we hope that the friendships are on a path to recovery.

I agree. Right now it seems as if it could never be like it was before, but seeing individuals on both sides mending their friendship makes me hope that between you it might even become better than ever over some time.
I for my part would be happy to be allowed to call you friends again and chat when we meet without those events shadowing each and every moment. It will barely be forgotten but maybe we can manage to put aside bad emotions that may come up with memories, when we interact in the future.
Levvy wrote:Your explanation of underground rather matched the way the meaning of the word was taken, so there is an agreement in that aspect at least.
However, what we believe you have failed to understand, from the situation, our actions, and our post, is that there was no such close-knit group of friends with a bias against the rest of the community.

I'm sorry but it seems you got me wrong again. There was and is a skype channel and there are channels beside that. That is pretty normal and totally ok, but just to show that there was chat about guild matters hidden from other members I'd like to quote something that was already quoted elswhere and therefor shouldn't hurt privacy more than it already did:
[9/21/2013 1:48:28 PM] Lemón: Just wait
[9/21/2013 1:48:29 PM] Lemón: xD
[9/21/2013 1:48:30 PM] Lemón: Shh
[9/21/2013 1:48:31 PM] Lemón: Kathy
[9/21/2013 1:48:34 PM] Kathy: don't talk about that in groupchat
[9/21/2013 1:48:34 PM] Kathy: xD

This isn't meant to be an accusation but to show you that there was indeed a close-knit group of friends. And as I tried to explain, such groups are bound to become biased. You wouldn't even notice, but you are bound to build opinions based on the info you get. Groups with a separate communication channel or even several of those will have simply more input than those who don't participate in that and hence their view will be influenced.
What I like to make clear is that I don't claim anyone would have intended to "cheat" on the guild or me. It simply can't be avoided that separate communication channels will have a great impact on your opinion. This doesn't hold true only for skype and non-Mabi communications but also for any form of private chat. The only countermeasure would be to be aware of the risk to become biased at all times and constantly seek to neutralize the plus on input from that by chatting to the same extend with all guild members. That's quite impossible though and that means we all are biased in a way. How far that goes depends on the size of the group we are regularly "private chatting" with and on its members.
Levvy wrote:Close friends forming inside a guild is both inevitable and perfectly natural.

Pretty much that. Group forming inside a community can't be avoided as it is natural social behavior and actually very desirable. It's obvious that you think I blame anyone for it. In fact I do not.
It is partially my fault too that at least one of those groups developed an aversion against the way I lead. I should have reacted earlier, when I saw there was a parallel community starting to be. My reaction should have been warnings Maybe, not to rely too much on out-of-Mabi communication, but that wouldn't have worked I guess. I even tried to make you realize that skype and guild life don't mix up too well and asked everyone to keep them separated. An illusory thought, I know. But there was no way for me to make you keep guild life within Mabi other than reason.
From what I learned, those tries even did cost me some sympathies.
Levvy wrote:Have you considered that the reason the same few people know about feelings within the guild, and incidents (good and bad) that occurred, is because they tend to be online at the same time due to time zones?

I have and that isn't the case, simply because timezones are not a shared feature of said same people. However, playing times were the reason on similar occasions earlier in Reso's history.

Levvy wrote:We were told that there was, and that it was told to Crayl. It's great that there was some communication, except Crayl was not the right channel, being neither officer nor the leader, and especially in the context of when he was informed.

Crayl contacted me even, not the other way around. The "context" was pretty much ruled by him.
Levvy wrote:You tell us that we need to contact you or your officer, but you fail to contact ours.

Like I said, Levont seems to have removed me from her list right after my congratulations. At least I didn't see her online since. No member of Altruism informed me about who their officials are. I only learned that Levont was Leader by reading the founding message. Initiating a contact I was brushed off to say the least.

Levvy wrote:It was questioned why we had not already posted within a thread that not only never invited us to participate, but also openly harassed us.

A bit down your post you state that the members of Altruism are pretty much equals or at least qualify to the same amount. I was contacted by what I considered an Ambassador of Altruism after their Leader refused to communicate. I told him what I wanted to be forwarded to your guild. If that didn't happen, I can't help it.
Again, I faced a clear refusal to communicate when I initiated contact. I have put each former member of Resonanze who ever registered on these forums to the status of a "Friend of Resonanze" immediately after the incident. It wouldn't have been to hard to check on the forums and see the set of permissions granted to people with that status. Also the name of that forum group doesn't quite qualify as some sort of devaluation or even repulsion I think.
You were asked by our Officer to contact me, which you didn't while at the same time he was playing the messenger between us and it would have been all too easy to just click on my name in your friends list and open a chat.
I posted my request for your reply quite some time after you were asked to contact me by our Officer, and I admit I did that out of the bad mood your repeated rejection put me in.
Levvy wrote:The third time we tried contacting your officer to discuss making a new thread, as we thought that would be the mature decision in order to avoid the negative emotions building up in the existing thread. Instead, we were denied without opportunity to discuss it and told to post in the previous thread.

I couldn't have posted in another thread anything I didn't post in that existing one. I opened a thread to state my point of view and it would have been very appropriate to reply directly and relate to each statement of mine that you wanted to comment on. Alternatively I offered to start a new thread giving your point of view just like I did with mine. By that I granted you the same right as myself and I really can't see what another thread opened by me would have changed.
Keep in mind that at that time I had invited you using the only contact I didn't get repelled at.

Levvy wrote:It seem like you perceive a set of rules regarding leadership and governance, which is good.

You could have known that earlier by reading my post about me putting up rules spontaneously. I will quote myself here, since you can no longer access said post.
Arianamue wrote:I'm not a friend of rules and I would wish common sense and manners would be every ones guides.

You say you consider us dear and important to Resonanze, and yet you clearly formed the plan with the intent to ferret out those who opposed you. Following that, you took action to get rid of those people, cleansing the "poison" and leaving Reso without the group you did not like.

Remove the part I striked through and it fits.
I simply saw that incidents like that were going to happen more and more frequently unless I did something about it.
As this thread seems to show, discussing it would have taken quite some time. Days, weeks and maybe months would have passed, with incidents going on and our discussion likely poisoning the mood even more. We would probably have ended up with unrepairable break ups over that. My all too stressed lack of time as well as different timezones and the general (passive) refusal to use the forum as a platform of discussion would have prolonged the process by a multitude.
Are you sure that would have been a wise decision?
Levvy wrote:You label Crayl leaving the guild as an act of altruism. We must then question why this act of altruism was taken as an act of intimidation, one which forced decisions upon you.

The difference is the motivation.
Saying "I quit if this or that doesn't happen." is quite different from saying "I leave so I can't cause anymore damage."
Levvy wrote:You responded once with "unless someone finds a way out, yeah, that was it" to questions confirming if that really meant the end of the guild. And solutions were provided, and debated upon, but were rejected by you.

I rejected solutions that were not acceptable and kept doing so until the only solution was provided by Crayl.



Levvy wrote:At first you described his leaving as an act of altruism to save the guild, yet now you contradict that by stating his actions as an attempt to displace you as the leader, which is not altruistic at all. This is plausible to believe if one thought replaced the other through realization. However, you later comment on how you loved the guild name (which, if it was a plan to get rid of you, again would not be altuistic). Furthermore, nobody other than Crayl himself would know his motives in leaving the guild.

Well, you were not there anymore at this point, so I summarize what he said then:
He told that there were members ,including him, hating my way of leading and that they actually planned to leave for quite some time already. Also he stated that he kept those from doing bad things to Naxos as they planned. Basically he told us that a plot was going on and made plausible that only his leave could stop or stall it.
Now I knew already he would leave in the end as I said before. The only way to get rid of me as a leader would have been causing general aversion towards me among the guildies. Making me kick him would definitely at least damage my reputation as not being trigger happy, even if that would have been only a marginal blow. Added to the impression I left with my former statements of dissolving the guild that would indeed seem catastrophic to the way guildies look at me.
So he was trying to discredit me but noticed eventually that it wouldn't work. My refusal to kick him could as well be seen as an invitation to work things out with him staying. Knowing that this would cause more damage like I explained above, he choose to leave. That was actually what I was sure to see of him since I know he loved and likely still loves Resonanze. Both our faces had been preserved as good as they could, when he gave up his tries to make me look bad and furthermore decided to prevent more incidents and drama from happening than inevitable now.
Levvy wrote:That history of Resonance/Resonanze is very touching, and we appreciate your attempts to save the guild. However, the history leads to some confusion in the present. Many people passed on the guild because they felt they were unable to lead it properly, one of them even citing that they barely had enough time to care for it.

Actually in most cases their reason were that they could no longer play Mabi or that they didn't want to. In some cases the expectations members seemed to have of merely a fellow player with premium service were simply to much and they didn't want to take the effort to try and satisfy them, assuming they were obliged to do so as a leader while in fact you are not.
This might be the point we differ the most. A guild leader isn't there to make everyone in the guild happy. It's their task to install and maintain a certain spirit or soul to the guild and make sure it is shared by the members. That's all the leadership is about besides the payment thing. All the rest is the job of their members and since they are a leader is a member too, they share that job but their share is not any bigger that that of every member.

Levvy wrote:People have a life, we get it. Some people have more gaming time than others. It's not anyone's fault they have little time for involvement in a game. But, can you say that you're doing a good job at being the leader of a guild when you can hardly participate enough to know about the members?

I can.
I installed ways to keep me informed. Some people actually use channels I opened to contact me even when I can't be there at the same time as them. Not just for fun but to actually communicate.

Levvy wrote:If you told people that you were too busy to take care of the guild, that you needed people to help you with certain roles, or even if you asked someone else to take the role of the leader, many would have complied happily. The guild means a lot to members too, not just you, Ari.

I'll try to explain again why I don't want "certain roles".
Roles and functions constitute a hierarchy of some sort and that grants some members filling those roles the power to do quite some damage to the guild. Evidently members, even the most trusted ones, without that power do quite enough damage already and considering the fact that power corrupts (I might be no exception) I rather take that risk on my own. I have a wonderful Officer at my side who saved me a few times already, but would he be able to save everyone who fails? And what would happen to people who can't resist the temptation once? They will most likely be most appreciated among the guildies and that might turn into hate if they fall, leaving deep wounds.
It is perfectly ok with me if some guildies start to hate me because of what I do or how I do it. Because I have to deal with the consequences and nobody else.

Levvy wrote:Crayl's actions were certainly not the reason our guild was named Altruism. Your "LOL" seemed like mocking laughter in that context, especially due to your theories of us scheming to overthrow you, which is definitely not altruistic. However, we understand that this appears to be a misunderstanding between us, and we would be glad if messages about our guild name were in a good view as opposed to sarcastic.

I assure you it was never meant as sarcasm.
When you all came back to Nax' HS, I think I even saw some of you give a "lol" on the suggestion to call the new guild Altruism, while I commented it was a good name though. There for I didn't see a way, my "lol" and the comment that you really pulled it off to use that name could be taken as offense, when I sent my congratulations. Like I said, the chat got cut off and at first I thought Levont DCed but started to realize I got removed from her list when didn't see her come back.
All the alleviation I felt when you said to wish to stay on good terms were crushed in one hit when I saw that reaction.

Levvy wrote:In regards to Levont's words, we unfortunately feel that this is just another example of miscommunication between the leader and officer of Resonanze. Altruism works differently, in the sense that our leader is not the sole decision maker. Levont does not make the final decisions, and she is well aware of this. We have a group of senior members who decide as a counsel group. What we decided on was that our two guilds would not be official partnered guilds, as had been brought up as a possibility before. We felt that a partnership at that particular point would be awkward with the existing tension between us. At no point did we say there could not be friendship between the two guilds.

I beg your pardon, but I am not aware that anyone at Resonanze even considered a "partnership" of the two guilds, nor could I imagine how that would be supposed to work.
However, I am willing to take that as a misunderstanding, since I was hoping it was one.

Levvy wrote:We came to this thread seeking for peace between the members of our guilds. We aimed to clear up misunderstandings and defend allegations. We are happy to announce that we feel we have achieved our goal, as we were able to clear the misunderstandings amongst certain members. We hope that the members of our guilds will continue to be able to get along as friends, and hope that the leadership of both, as well as individual differences, will no longer attempt to tear them apart.

I really hope one day we can talk about all that with some distance to the emotions that may right now still rule our wording and our understanding.
And I hope we will then see the positive aspect of it in being the cause for the creation of another wonderful and very prosperous guild with members who carry the spirit of Mabinogi like it was when everyone was still new to it.


Please excuse my reply but I felt there was some points that I couldn't leave without comment.
Feel free to reply even if you stated you wouldn't. You are considered "Friends of Resonanze" by the forum and by me, no matter how offensive you ever may sound to me. I strongly believe that you never had any intention to let anything harm Resonanze or it's members.
The reason why I wanted you so badly to explain yourself was to make my fellow guildies share my view. From what I can tell, that goal was indeed achieved and that I am thankful for.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby GowenCommando » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:43 am

Pomf here. Honestly I don't really feel like reading everything in this thread. Too many walls of text. Everyone's got their own reasons, you know? I'm not going to bore you with mine.

The one thing that bothers me is how Ari claims we named the guild in honor of Crayl's act of 'selflessness'. That's just so... belittling. We actually put effort into thinking up names and voting on which ones we liked best. We didn't want anyone to be stuck with a guild name they hated.

That's the actual point of the guild name. It's supposed to emphasize that we work together on issues and vote, instead of having Levont make every single decision. The other top suggestions were in the same vein. Naming a guild over an hour of drama is just pathetic. Please stop thinking so little of us.

Arianamue wrote:I beg your pardon, but I am not aware that anyone at Resonanze even considered a "partnership" of the two guilds, nor could I imagine how that would be supposed to work.


Nax mentioned it literally in the post above yours, lols.

Also, this is my first post. Who'd have figured it would be like this?
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Naxos » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:07 am

GowenCommando wrote:Pomf here. Honestly I don't really feel like reading everything in this thread. Too many walls of text. Everyone's got their own reasons, you know? I'm not going to bore you with mine.

The one thing that bothers me is how Ari claims we named the guild in honor of Crayl's act of 'selflessness'. That's just so... belittling. We actually put effort into thinking up names and voting on which ones we liked best. We didn't want anyone to be stuck with a guild name they hated.

That's the actual point of the guild name. It's supposed to emphasize that we work together on issues and vote, instead of having Levont make every single decision. The other top suggestions were in the same vein. Naming a guild over an hour of drama is just pathetic. Please stop thinking so little of us.




While I'm not directly concerned by that misunderstanding, I can certify it is one. I'm willing to bet my head and all the credibility you're willing to give me that there was no intention of belittling or mocking anyone. I truly believe Ari genuinely meant what she said. And she said herself what made her think that way : even if that was not the reason the guild was named so, it made her think of that. She could repeat herself stating that she meant no offense whatsoever. I think the general mood at the time simply gave everyone the wrong idea.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Arianamue » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:06 pm

GowenCommando wrote:Pomf here. Honestly I don't really feel like reading everything in this thread. Too many walls of text. Everyone's got their own reasons, you know? I'm not going to bore you with mine.

The one thing that bothers me is how Ari claims we named the guild in honor of Crayl's act of 'selflessness'. That's just so... belittling. We actually put effort into thinking up names and voting on which ones we liked best. We didn't want anyone to be stuck with a guild name they hated.

That's the actual point of the guild name. It's supposed to emphasize that we work together on issues and vote, instead of having Levont make every single decision. The other top suggestions were in the same vein. Naming a guild over an hour of drama is just pathetic. Please stop thinking so little of us.

Arianamue wrote:I beg your pardon, but I am not aware that anyone at Resonanze even considered a "partnership" of the two guilds, nor could I imagine how that would be supposed to work.


Nax mentioned it literally in the post above yours, lols.

Also, this is my first post. Who'd have figured it would be like this?

At the moment I posted I didn't read the following posts. I prefer to reply to posts of a thread in the given order if at all. So my statement was true at the time when I submitted my post.

About belittling your guild name and different points of view: In my eyes your explanation of it actually belittles the guild name far more, but that doesn't matter. My opinion about anything regarding you would only play a role if you care about it.
If you do care, I can tell you that a name choosen the most common way (that is by the founding members thinking and considering a bunch of possible choices while they probably don't even comprehend every aspects of the meanings of all candidates) isn't really that impressive to me.
Agreeing to honor and build a monument for the occasion that caused the guild to exist and even such a fitting one, so shortly after it all happened seemed admirable to me.
Well you taught me I overestimated you and also that you either apparently decided on the guild name before you even knew that any such incident would make you actually found it so soon or that you are rather fast and efficient in getting decisions made.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Tensano » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:40 pm

I've decided that I will explain myself further.

It was my impression that it was planned for a while that ya'll were going to ask Ari to step down as leader and if she refused then ya'll were going to leave.

Now let me stress this: I was wrong on this as this is not what happened.

You have to remember I was not there before the meeting started.
BUT I thought "why else would she do something so drastic as to announce a shutdown of the guild?" Then I read the skype thing and it gave me the wrong idea.

I am sorry for the hurt I caused and for thinking you awesome people capable of what I assumed. again. I am sorry.

I will not seek you all out at this time. But I do hope we can all be friends again one day.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Koyukichi » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:31 am

Hmmm.... Interesting...
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Naxos » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:25 am

Bah, don't let it worry you, the case is pretty much closed now. Though if you really want to get more details or simply have everyone's version of this issue, you're free to ask them.

Kind of would prefer if it remained burried though, probably wont bring up anything good from bringing it back up to surface
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