Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

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Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Levvy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:03 am

Since we were invited to, we'd like to clear up some misunderstandings and accusations.

Before anything though, we would like to explain why we have not posted in the other thread. The thread stated that it was a conclusion and summary of the meeting and incident, followed by offering Resonanze members to provide feedback and suggestions. Altruism members were not invited to state their opinions anywhere. Many members were very hurt by accusations and feelings displayed by former friends, yet did not feel right to barge into a thread, uninvited, that was not for them. Furthermore, we did not want to cause more drama, or turn this into a mud fight. Responding in this thread to defend ourselves would be calling out on Resonanze members, who have already created a biased playing field so far, without knowing details from both sides. Again, Altruism members were not invited to post here prior to this.

Atruism requested a new thread to state our position on the issue, as well as tell the story from our perspective. The goal is to talk on even grounds, as equals, as unbiased as possible. A request for a new thread was sent to the Officer, who stated he wanted to talk to the leader before we post, and to wait until the next day. Although we knew that this would allow things to fester on both sides, we respected his wishes as a friend, and the Officer of Resonanze. However, clearly there was some failure in communication. There are claims of hatred directed at Ari, without basis. We are placed the blame of not replying to this thread sooner, while we were not invited to do so. We were specifically told to wait until the Officer has consulted the Leader, and have a talk about this issue, before giving the okay for us to post.

Ari has already stated her summary on what happened, now we at Altruism would like to give ours. We would be honoured if you would read this in order to clear up the misunderstandings we believe exist. This is a compilation of various feelings of the previous members of Resonanze, now in Altruism. The goal is so members of both guilds are better able to understand each other's perspectives, and clear up any misunderstandings that exist.


To start off, we would like to give a summary of what happened during the meeting that lead to members leaving.

The meeting started with the cause of trying to resolve a disagreement between guildies. Those who knew about the incident came to the meeting expecting a resolution. Be it having member(s) removed from the guild, or having those involved talked to about behaviour, or implementing new rules to prevent such behaviour in the future, we expected some form of resolution. Instead, we were faced with the announcement that Resonanze was going to disband, as it was the only solution deemed possible by Arianamue, the leader. In addition to the announcements, it was also claimed that the guild became unleadable and destroyed. Not only would having Reso dissolved separate members, but our leader says that it will be the end of Mabinogi for her, and no we cannot keep in touch.

Lots of feelings were hurt over that, we believe, since Resonanze was something special to everyone. It was a family, a large group of friends, a group of silly people to have fun with, whatever individuals think. Yet it was going to be dissolved, without possibility for repair. It was moving to see how the comments about how people love Resonanze, and how it feels like family.

Then, it was brought up that dissolving the guild can't possibly be the only solution. Just because the guild felt "unleadable" to the current leader doesn't mean it should be the end of the guild. Someone should be allowed to take over and revive it. If that's not possible, we can always make a new guild with everyone in Reso anyway. "I'm sorry, it's not just your guild", was said.

Then came what really hurt our feelings, and left us astonished. Arianamue replied with "I'm sorry but this is pretty much my guild", with Naxos confirming, "It is, she pays for it". Not something like "This is my guild, this is everyone's guild so it's my guild too", but plain out "this is my guild". This is said after countless statements of Resonanze being the members' guild, that the leaders were there to make things run smoothly.

So, rightfully we believe, people got angry and hurt. The situation so far has been the leaders informing us of their decision to disband the guild because it was becoming impossible, and they'd rather see it gone than destroyed.

Then, arguments started. Crayl and Dartan both offered to leave the guild to keep it alive. The leaders refused to kick. Past arguments were dragged up. The mood turned angry and uncomfortable. There was a clear disagreement in what members and leaders thought were the right courses of action.

Eventually, people had enough of the arguments that were turning petty and childish, as well as the awful mood, and left the meeting. Others got angry and left the guild--because why not, it was disbanding soon. From there, we believed that the best course of action was to make a new guild, and remake Reso. And so we did. That's why Altruism was created.

Part what we're working on now in Altruism is good communication between the members, senior members, Officer, and Leader. We felt that really lacking in Resonanze, and wish to improve upon that. We also have a clear statement of how rules will be created and changed, as well as ideas about actual guild politics regarding recruitment and kicking members.

After the fact, we learnt that Reso was in fact not disbanded. We shall address that shortly. But first, why did we not go back? Reso was alive after all, we could just fix up the guild again. The reason we didn't is because we felt that under the existing guild structure, with the existing rules and leadership style, it would be very difficult to improve. Although we left friends behind, our new guild consisted of something we felt was lacking in Resonanze, agreement in structure.


Now, Resonanze did not disband in the end. By word of mouth, everyone eventually learnt that Reso did not disband, and Ari did not plan on disbanding at all. She claims that she was only threatening us with disbanding so we can be more proactive in fixing up the guild. Something crazy will happen, so kiss and make up! Regardless, we felt like that was a drastic measure to take. We don't think an official statement to disband a guild is a light matter.

Furthermore, claiming that the ploy was to get rid of the "underground", that it was needed to "unmask the faces of those against Ari", is just ridiculous. C'mon. This isn't a clan war. What happened to being friends and family? This isn't a novel about political intrigue, this is a game where friends play together to have fun, and make friendships. Saying that the action was taken to get rid of people claimed as friends and family is just plain insulting. In addition, "conspiring" to get rid of those "conspiring" is rather hypocritical, more ridiculous when the accused party was not, in fact, conspiring.


Many of you within Resonanze have talked about us "planning" this whole thing, citing evidence from Skype chatlogs that Crayl knew what would happen before the chat even started. We would like to put an end to this. The general message here seems to be that we planned to dissolve the guild in order to leave and make a new one. We would like to say that there was nothing of that sort. If there were any "planning" or "conspiracies", they extended to a small group of friends planning on leaving together should they be dissatisfied with Resonanze. Over half of the people who left for Atruism had no prior knowledge of any such plans. A few left solely because of what occurred during the meetings. Their decision was only influenced by the meeting. Others left because close friends that mean the world of Mabinogi to them left.

The chat log mentioned shows that Crayl and Levvy had an idea of what the meeting was going to be about before the meeting, because both knew about the disagreement earlier. They did not want to reveal it though, because the decisions of the leaders were still unknown.

If anyone still feels like we've conspired, please state your reasons for it. We would like to clear up any misunderstandings that are creating tension between the two guilds, and former friends.

We'd also like to address Ari's statement that members forced her into a corner, and that threatening to disband was the only solution.

This is simply not true.

There were various other methods than disbanding. For example, if there was fault, the faulty member could be punished or expelled. Those involved in the argument could be encouraged to make up their differences and learn to tolerate each other.

Should leadership really feel unbearable, there were volunteers in Resonanze who were willing to shoulder the responsibility and maintain the guild. When brought up though, this was not allowed, citing it was the leader's guild.


About not receiving feedback:
There's one general agreement about this, that being feedback was given, but there were little implementation of them. As an example, a number of feedback was given during this meeting, but none were taken. Instead, those words and suggestions were warped to members enforcing change by blackmailing. Isn't the purpose of feedback to listen to them, and solve existing problems? We're not saying that any suggestions from guildies should be implemented, but they should be taken into consideration, and the course of action should follow the wants and needs of the members.

Leaders were also contacted and involved for previous incidents, yet no resolutions were made. The people reported instead were blamed for causing trouble, and suggested to avoid creating them. Should a problem occur between guildies, but not on Mabinogi, it should not be brought to the leaders.


We felt insulted by some comments. It'd be nice to have those clarified if it's a misunderstanding.
We hoped to leave the guild on good terms, and when we returned to Naxos' homestead to say goodbye, it had truly seemed that way. However, what followed were insults hurled at us—both as a group and individually. We've also discovered that some members in Resonanze have deleted/blacklisted most of the members in Altruism shortly after the creation of our guild.

Immediately after leaving, comments were made on our guild name, Altruism. Altruism or selflessness is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others. We cannot but think that these remarks are written sarcastically. http://puu.sh/4wZug http://puu.sh/4yRRp.png

Having something negative written about us—falsely even, in the public section of a forum, in a thread that discussed the situation, saying "Oops I'm sorry, I really didn't think they could see this" is insulting.


You guys are just blaming Ari.
For leaving? Some left because her statements felt insulting to them, "this is my guild" did not sit well. Neither did bickering in a childish argument, with name-callings and laying blame. Not respected in a member, but certainly not expected as the leader and representative of a guild.

Some left because they didn't like the leadership structure in Resonanze. Ari and Naxos are part of the leadership style, that's how it's related.

We don't think anybody would've left, unless they were kicked, if the argument did not occur. The mood, statements, and words used during it were what really pushed people to leave. On that part, yes Ari is to blame.

The aftermath though, we would agree that most people's unhappiness occurred from the words of people here. Ari made official statements, people followed with (what we felt were) unjust comments. False claims and snide remarks were everywhere.

Yes it was our choice to leave. A guild that was going to be disbanded soon, a guild some have left, a guild full of arguments at the time. Do we blame Ari for it? It's not entirely her fault, but her words during the meeting, as the leader of the guild, really sparked it.

The point is though, we didn't make a new guild because we hate Ari. In fact, many rather like her as a person. It does happen that as the leader of Resonanze, she initiated many of the disagreements that followed.



In the end though, the general feeling is that just like how we left on good terms, we would love to remain that way. We genuinely felt that this was a shared feeling between the two guilds, but actions from Resonanze clearly did not support that. Hopefully that is just because of misunderstandings, which can be cleared up.


If anyone would like clarification on anything, we would be happy to provide that. We left on what we believed were good terms with Resonanze and its members, and we would be happy to maintain friendships. There is always a place for Resonanze members within the heart of Altruism.


Thank you for reading,
Altruism.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Naxos » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:30 am

As per what is written above, I would like to remind everyone posting afterward is to post in a civil manner, much like the post itself did in exposing their griefs. No sarcasm, no passive-agressive comments. If this isn't followed, the discussion is bound to have either no outcome, or only a bad one.


I feel I particularly have nothing to say that I haven't already said to Altruism members individually in most of the things they wrote above. I personally gave my opinion on what I thought was in my power to do so, and tried to dissolve misunderstandings in the same process. Whether my words are considered or not is something for them to see, I've done my part and stated my opinion.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of members black listing or removing from friendlist on our side. And if they did so, they did on their own. As such I would like it to be regarded as a Personal matter, and not a guild one. I would understand if Everyone in Resonanze actually agreed on cutting contact with those who left, or even if they all did so on their own. That was not the case. I know that Ari was cut off however without having been able to explain herself on a few things (Notably what she said regarding the guild name), I'll let her explain what her point was, still noting that I got her point, and carried it to Altruism equally, again whether it was considered or not is not in my power to know.

Lastly regarding the chat thing that popped up in the other thread, I wish to remind Again that this was the initiative of one member, not the guild, and that he was even corrected by fellow guildies on the matter. The chat did not show what he thought it did, and in the heat of the moment, he misunderstood it's time and context. It is not in my place to talk for that person, and they're free to express themselves on the matter if they will.


For all the rest, I let the people who are concerned speak up for themselves, as I feel I already did much and probably Too much on the matter to try and better the situation, to the point of degrading my health and my work. Likewise, I'll leave future griefs be worked on by individuals themselves. I'm willing to give a lot to my guild and friends, but I'd rather not risk more than I already have considering I haven't seen any progress on the situation.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Levont » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:52 am

Naxos wrote:I have no knowledge whatsoever of members black listing or removing from friendlist on our side. And if they did so, they did on their own. As such I would like it to be regarded as a Personal matter, and not a guild one. I would understand if Everyone in Resonanze actually agreed on cutting contact with those who left, or even if they all did so on their own. That was not the case. I know that Ari was cut off however without having been able to explain herself on a few things (Notably what she said regarding the guild name), I'll let her explain what her point was, still noting that I got her point, and carried it to Altruism equally, again whether it was considered or not is not in my power to know.

Lastly regarding the chat thing that popped up in the other thread, I wish to remind Again that this was the initiative of one member, not the guild, and that he was even corrected by fellow guildies on the matter. The chat did not show what he thought it did, and in the heat of the moment, he misunderstood it's time and context. It is not in my place to talk for that person, and they're free to express themselves on the matter if they will.


The comments regarding blacklisting and the other chat are not meant to call out on certain members, which is why we did not include names. Nor are they meant to serve as an assumption of the guild. They are just examples of bad reactions taken due to the misunderstandings and anger surrounding this subject. Insults were thrown, and people felt forced to take sides.

If the members involved (on either side) do not wish to re-add anyone, that is perfectly in their will to do so.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Tensano » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:23 am

This thread clarified things for me. I believe differences of opinion got blown way out of proportion. I did clear the friendlist but I blacklisted no one. People in Alturism are free to add me again but I believe that I'm pretty much hated over there. >.<
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby EMTchibi » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:54 am

:) Hopefully this will clear up misunderstanding and you wont get bashed anymore. You guys have had enough. Last I heard, you guys wanted to be a sister guild and still be together but with a different structure. I've thought of a REALLY ultra mega fun idea for both guilds to participate in I'm going to ask about at the guild meeting on Saturday if you're still up for that. :D
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Levvy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Tensano wrote:This thread clarified things for me. I believe differences of opinion got blown way out of proportion. I did clear the friendlist but I blacklisted no one. People in Alturism are free to add me again but I believe that I'm pretty much hated over there. >.<


I'm very glad for that then. It feels like we've accomplished an objective with that long post. :D

I know I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't hate you Ten, nor do I think other members do. I think most people, especially the people who felt closer to you than others, just felt hurt by what was said, and the cut in friendship. =)
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Sweetchicks » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:41 pm

I just wanna say I am sorry that if I have caused anything wrong please forgive me. I loved all you guys from the start and I still do. I know I deleted some of u guys because of the anger but I would like to become friends again if we can. And if there is anything that I said was wrong I am very sorry....
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Arianamue » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:51 pm

Please forgive me, if I don't cover any point of your post but as I mentioned frequently I always lack time. Also I feel that I shouldn't neglect the guild for too long. If anything I learned that from those recent events.

Where to begin?
Well I see that nearly every word that was said found its way to the wrong place in the other side's mind. I already mentioned to Crayl that everyone is biased in a way and therefore we are probably bound to misunderstand everything in situations like this.

Let me explain the cursed term "underground" in my post. I've had it countless times happening to me in various communities that groups formed inside groups. That sort of clustering seems to be a desirable development at start but over time those "closer friends" start to isolate and become biased against the rest of the community.
This is a natural phenomenon and part of what is called group dynamics.
They are most likely sharing a certain mindset. Whoever doesn't share their views is unconsciously looked at as "one of the others". More and more "the others" become those with weird views who can't understand the "closer friends" anyway. Those "closer friends" start to isolate even more and feel entitled because they have people who approve of all their thoughts, while "the others" are just a bunch of people who individually disagree on different matters without anyone backing them up.
In the end it leads to the point where the groups inside the community feel they have not much in common with the rest of it. They are always right and the others always wrong. I am not stating that those people are evil, but the dynamics of it pretty much are. It poisons every community sooner or later.
I could not avoid noticing that while people I spoke with individually, were quite talkative then but barely reacted when I asked questions to the whole community. I also saw that whenever there was any kind of issue, the same few people were comprehensively informed already while I had to investigate and sometimes kinda interrogate people to find out what happened. Not that one of those few people would have thought of informing me.
I see the argument coming that I was never there when things happened. To some extend that can be explained by my lack of presence compared to others. But there was only a few days when I couldn't log on at least for a check on messages. Also I created this forum for the sole purpose of having a way to communicate non-simultaneously because each day has a lot of hours when I can't be there. I have to sleep, eat, work and live my life besides Mabi.
Besides that there are in-game means to contact me even if I am not there. There is mail and notes and there is a guild Officer. I check Forum, email, in-game mail and notes every day at least once and if the Officer is aware of an issue at all, he tells me.
The pure fact that a certain group of people was always well informed while it was rather hard to get the least bit of information myself made me assume that a group of "closer friends" existed. I called that "underground" which I regret now because it was misunderstood just because it could. To my defense I have to say that I didn't work hard on my post to make it bulletproof. I never do, because I am able to admit and regret mistakes while I am able that it is impossible to avoid them anyway.

I did indeed say I felt the guild has become "unleadable" because the unwritten rule of any community that is lead by someone was violated, that says that trying to influence your leader's decisions by threatening them destroys the sovereignty and the integrity every member of the community has a right to have faith and trust in. One who takes that step would try to become a gray eminence, avoiding responsibility but secretly ruling over the rest.
I faced the threat to lose valued members if I wouldn't take steps against another member who was provoked to deliver an argument. I had decided to give said member a chance to change his behavior without objections. At least nobody told me they would disagree.
By the incident that lead to the meeting last saturday I saw not only my decision attacked but I also saw I was forced to choose between members, since the solution I had installed previously was apparently neither respected nor bearable but a simple statement of disagreement wasn't considered either. It had to be an open attack on my integrity because I am one of "the others" while he was certain to be right because the "closer friends" were on his side and they are more than just some single leader whom he didn't even know well enough to tell why she was leader at all.
Now I know that none of you would have wanted Resonanze guild to be disbanded. So I pulled out a bluff to force the "closer friends" to take actions. I was well aware that this would shock far more than the group it was aimed at (and of which I could not definitely tell it's members). I was also aware that I would probably lose more actually not involved members than by giving in. but I opted for collateral damage, hoping it could be repaired later somehow.
In fact I was ready to sacrifice my dearest to save my equally dearest. The only difference between the two is numbers and philosophy. Remember this when I come to comment on your guild's name.
From the moment when Crayl said he would know what to expect from that meeting I knew he would leave Resonanze at the end of it. And I knew it would be to save the guild. A noble sacrifice and I mean it. What he did there is the most noble thing anyone can do in my eyes. It is the essence of Altruism, the term. But it is also the very last resort and always should be.
Unconsciously he noticed that I didn't just say I would dissolve the guild but that I added "unless anyone provides another solution". I offered a way out and he took it without hesitating, although he couldn't achieve to make me the actual bad guy by making me kick him. His tries to make me look bad (when I actually looked much worse already than he would have hoped and was even aware of that and feeling miserably about it), those tries actually convinced me that there was a plot to make me look bad in a way that the guild would agree to get rid of me as a leader. I started to suspect that Crayl only threw a grenade way too early to make a slow and subtle discrediting work.
I even learned why such a plot could have been made: Because apparently some or all of the "closer friends" found that I disregard their feedback (which must have been so quiet that I failed to notice), that I work out my Officer like a slave and only randomly show up for an act of tyranny and that I am not in any way approved as a leader (by anyone important). I also learned that people saying they would like me only do so because they fear to get kicked if they don't show up just to tell me something that makes me feel wanted. Further I learned that being honest is nothing that fits a leader but that at the same time all my words are taken as lies anyway and that my continued offer of friendship to Altruism guild is taken as an offense.
Crayl may not represent Altruism guild, but I'm pretty sure he has his ideas from said "closer friends" and their chats. Views like that don't grow overnight. And they are actually the result of a lack of will to even try to get to know me personally as well as to learn more about Resonanze and me and why I consider it My guild.

I consider Resonanze my guild because I took leadership very reluctantly. I saw two leaders come and go when Hadex couldn't stay for personal reasons. I was asked three times to take over but refused. At the third time I agreed to be Vice (that is Officer in NA) and when Mar (the leader back then) couldn't stay either I had barely a choice but to fill the position. I knew I would cause and get into trouble a lot, because I am unbearable when I have to use the power I am granted.
I decided to do my very best not to lose my temper and to learn to be a leader without enforcing anything beyond the basic rules of common sense in a social environment. I also did an oath that this change of leaders would be the last one and that I would warrant stability in that matter.
Events followed that made me break that oath.
I got locked out from Mabi for 3 months and there was no choice but to elect a new leader. The best person for that was Kasia in my eyes as well as in many others'. For me she was the best choice just because she always had the guts to oppose me when she felt I decided wrong. Her feedback was the most valuable thing a leader could wish for. It was for me a sign of trust as well as a sign of her care for the guild's prosperity. I tried my best to support her via the forum while I couldn't log on. When I finally could log on again, the uptime of the server was down to a few hours each week.
Mabi EU got shut down some time after that and we had to migrate to NA.
It wasn't clear whether or not Kasia would go to NA as well, but it was clear that we would rebuild the guild here. When we were sure Kasia wouldn't follow too soon and we were still not actually allowed to play in NA, we decided to re-found the guild here a.s.a.p. Nax' and my son (in game) DJ was the one who did that. When his newbie premium faded he bought the service, because I had yet to find a reliable way to charge NX. We were doing the job of a guild's head tho even while technically DJ was the leader and we left him in place as long as he wanted to. In terms of recruiting and rebuilding he did a fantastic job but actually leading was never his thing and he even said so. Eventually he had to take care of real life matters and couldn't play much anymore. It would have been a waste to buy service for the few hours he could actually still play and so he appointed me leader one day before his last premium ran out. In a PM he apologized to put that back on me but actually it was silently agreed long before that I would take the position and renew my oath from before.
Because of that Resonanze is pretty much My guild. I ensure that it exists and is lead in the spirit that makes it this particular guild and no other kind.
It is each members guild because said spirit consists of the idea to have fun together, to profit from helping each other and to participate in each others fantasy life and development and most of all in contributing to make the guild and all its members become better steadily.

When you, the leaving ones, came back to the meeting place to tell us we could stay on good terms, I assumed you meant you and Resonanze. I learned from your above post that you probably didn't mean the guild as such because you may still have thought it would be disbanded. Strange enough, almost anyone present except those who quit Resonanze bombarded me with PMs asking whether I was serious or commenting on how drastically a measure that was. And all got the reply that it wouldn't really happen as soon as I was sure that those of the present ones who belonged to the "closer friends" were gone. I really understand that Vonya left too, because she must have thought I mean her too when I said I was forced. At that point I could only hope to explain to her later and make her understand. I had no chance to send her a message because of the ongoing argument as well as all the PMs that reached me.
Anyway, you said you would make your own guild and that we would stay friends. Relieved I added one after the other to my friends list just to make sure I didn't miss anyone in there. Rather happy to see you willing to stay on good terms after all I even let a "lol" out when Levont suggested Altruism as the guild name, because I found that a rather well considered name after Crayls selfless sacrifice and not yet known to you at that moment I had shown some Altruism myself, like I explained above.
So in a metaphoric sense Altruism gave birth to your guild. What better reason for such a name could there be? How many Mabi guilds could say their name has such a deep meaning?
You preferred to take offense again, thinking only the worst of me. And Levont replied to my congratulations at becoming leader by asking how I meant my comment on the name, only to remove me from her friends list right after. I'm not even sure she waited for my explanation or if she did, that she read and understood it. It was pretty obvious that it was unthinkable to her that I could honestly be glad for her. She wanted to feel insulted and none of my words could have changed that.
That and Crayls mocking attempts didn't support the feeling that Altruism would like to be friends with Resonanze either, nor did Levont's words that both guilds can not be friends.
The latter though is only what I have heard from Naxos and I really hope it was just a typo.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Levvy » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:43 am

First of all, we would like to point out how happy we are that some misunderstandings are cleared up. Hurt feelings may remain for awhile, but we hope that the friendships are on a path to recovery.

Now, we would like to address Ari's post.



Arianamue wrote:Please forgive me, if I don't cover any point of your post but as I mentioned frequently I always lack time. Also I feel that I shouldn't neglect the guild for too long. If anything I learned that from those recent events.

It's perfectly understandable that people have lives. We believe this is a guild matter though, and appreciate your response.



Arianamue wrote:Where to begin?
Well I see that nearly every word that was said found its way to the wrong place in the other side's mind. I already mentioned to Crayl that everyone is biased in a way and therefore we are probably bound to misunderstand everything in situations like this.

We believe that some misunderstandings can and have arisen from this situation, which is why we wished to address some of that.



Arianamue wrote:Let me explain the cursed term "underground" in my post. I've had it countless times happening to me in various communities that groups formed inside groups. That sort of clustering seems to be a desirable development at start but over time those "closer friends" start to isolate and become biased against the rest of the community.
This is a natural phenomenon and part of what is called group dynamics.
They are most likely sharing a certain mindset. Whoever doesn't share their views is unconsciously looked at as "one of the others". More and more "the others" become those with weird views who can't understand the "closer friends" anyway. Those "closer friends" start to isolate even more and feel entitled because they have people who approve of all their thoughts, while "the others" are just a bunch of people who individually disagree on different matters without anyone backing them up.
In the end it leads to the point where the groups inside the community feel they have not much in common with the rest of it. They are always right and the others always wrong. I am not stating that those people are evil, but the dynamics of it pretty much are. It poisons every community sooner or later.

Your explanation of underground rather matched the way the meaning of the word was taken, so there is an agreement in that aspect at least.

However, what we believe you have failed to understand, from the situation, our actions, and our post, is that there was no such close-knit group of friends with a bias against the rest of the community. We have tried to state, and we want to state again, that all of us at Altruism have always loved Reso, and we still love the remaining members. Now, there are individual differences—some people are closer, some people are less tolerant of each other. But the point remains that we do not hate Resonanze as a whole. There are no groups. The individual people in Altruism have their individual feelings towards individuals in Resonanze. Together, the main directions of the feelings can be described as love, friendship, and goodwill.

We must say that the only person so far who tried to categorize all of us into groups is you, Ari. You made posts distinguishing the differences of "the members who remained in Resonanze", and "the members who left Resonanze and created Altruism", generalizing us into categories that do not exist. Friendship does not end because one carries a different guild name above one's head than another. That's what we're trying to point out. Even now, as forgiveness is passed around for misunderstandings, you still divide us with descriptions of an "underground" entity that poisons the community. And yet, we were the same, and remain the same. The friendship that existed before continues or begins to mend, and other friendships never existed. There was never a closed, biased group who shared a mindset and refused to consider the thoughts of others (that being what bias is). There was no bigotry, no feeling of entitlement. Those who left to create Altruism certainly did not think less of the members who stayed, especially as there were existing friendships. Nobody tried to force their opinion or thoughts onto others. In fact, many questioned their thoughts on the guild as their friends obviously had ones that differ.

Close friends forming inside a guild is both inevitable and perfectly natural. The view we believe you fail to see is that those friends do not form some sort of group with the same mentality. Some people like each other a lot, some less so. Some relate to each other more and spend more time together than others. One's friends also do not always like each other. But just because both are one's friends, does that make them all into a little isolated group that forms with bias, threatening to corrupt the community? We think that individuals should be respected as a person, in the sense that they have their own values, beliefs, and minds to make decisions. From your post, you seem to be saying that close friendship is great until they both agree on an opinion that differs from yours, the leader. As such, they oppose you, and are an underground group forming. Should they give feedback, and should others agree, the others are included in this little group opposing you. There are other close friends remaining in Resonanze, and we would hate for them to be labelled just like we have because they are trying to discuss guild problems.

Even people who disagree with each other and disliked each other had the same reaction following the announcement of disbandment, that of wanting to keep the guild together. Some have offered to leave themselves, others have created another guild intending to include the same members. If you must categorize people, the only categorization we could see from the event includes the group who wanted to keep the guild together, and the group who wanted to disband.



Arianamue wrote:I could not avoid noticing that while people I spoke with individually, were quite talkative then but barely reacted when I asked questions to the whole community.

We are assuming you mean the community in Resonanze prior to this incident. There are many simple answers to that, really. A lot of people are shy. Perhaps some could not go past their shyness to express themselves before others? Perhaps some were not confident in their opinions, since they were unsure what others thought? But, knowing this, I would suggest that it would be much more productive to speak to individuals about their opinions in such circumstances.



Arianamue wrote:I also saw that whenever there was any kind of issue, the same few people were comprehensively informed already while I had to investigate and sometimes kinda interrogate people to find out what happened. Not that one of those few people would have thought of informing me.
I see the argument coming that I was never there when things happened. To some extend that can be explained by my lack of presence compared to others. But there was only a few days when I couldn't log on at least for a check on messages. Also I created this forum for the sole purpose of having a way to communicate non-simultaneously because each day has a lot of hours when I can't be there. I have to sleep, eat, work and live my life besides Mabi.
Besides that there are in-game means to contact me even if I am not there. There is mail and notes and there is a guild Officer. I check Forum, email, in-game mail and notes every day at least once and if the Officer is aware of an issue at all, he tells me.
The pure fact that a certain group of people was always well informed while it was rather hard to get the least bit of information myself made me assume that a group of "closer friends" existed. I called that "underground" which I regret now because it was misunderstood just because it could. To my defense I have to say that I didn't work hard on my post to make it bulletproof. I never do, because I am able to admit and regret mistakes while I am able that it is impossible to avoid them anyway.

Once again, it is perfectly understandable that people have a life outside of Mabi, which is generally more important than a game. Some spend more time playing Mabi than others. However, responsibility does require time, and running a guild does require one to know about the members as well as their general emotions. Have you considered that the reason the same few people know about feelings within the guild, and incidents (good and bad) that occurred, is because they tend to be online at the same time due to time zones? And since we did not provide daily reports of non-incidents, nor have you inquired about our daily lives in Mabi, it is not surprising that you are not knowledgeable about what's going on within the guild. Again, it is perfectly understandable that you do not have the time, but the lack of time also diminishes the responsibilities you could perform as the leader of the guild.

Over the course of this issue, representatives of Altruism have contacted your officer numerous times. The first time we contacted him, we asked him if there was a place to leave feedback, for we were never informed. We were told that there was, and that it was told to Crayl. It's great that there was some communication, except Crayl was not the right channel, being neither officer nor the leader, and especially in the context of when he was informed. You tell us that we need to contact you or your officer, but you fail to contact ours.

The second time we contacted your officer asking if we may post in the forums, resulted in us agreeing to respect his wishes to contact you, the leader, before making the decision to allow us to do so. Yet, we received a snarky post in your forums stating that our side “refuses to help working it out”. It was questioned why we had not already posted within a thread that not only never invited us to participate, but also openly harassed us.

The third time we tried contacting your officer to discuss making a new thread, as we thought that would be the mature decision in order to avoid the negative emotions building up in the existing thread. Instead, we were denied without opportunity to discuss it and told to post in the previous thread.

Your lack of communication and co-operation in this matter makes it very hard for us to even consider contacting you directly. Should you display an open-mindedness to discuss matters and a wish to resolve tension, we would be very happy to take our issues to you.

The reason we have taken care in wording our response is because we have the capacity to change our words in a written setting, which we hope will not create further misunderstandings, or have us regret on needless mistakes. Rather than make it "bulletproof", we are trying to accurately convey our feelings while not stepping outside the boundaries of fact and personal opinions.



Arianamue wrote:I did indeed say I felt the guild has become "unleadable" because the unwritten rule of any community that is lead by someone was violated, that says that trying to influence your leader's decisions by threatening them destroys the sovereignty and the integrity every member of the community has a right to have faith and trust in. One who takes that step would try to become a gray eminence, avoiding responsibility but secretly ruling over the rest.
I faced the threat to lose valued members if I wouldn't take steps against another member who was provoked to deliver an argument. I had decided to give said member a chance to change his behavior without objections. At least nobody told me they would disagree.
By the incident that lead to the meeting last saturday I saw not only my decision attacked but I also saw I was forced to choose between members, since the solution I had installed previously was apparently neither respected nor bearable but a simple statement of disagreement wasn't considered either. It had to be an open attack on my integrity because I am one of "the others" while he was certain to be right because the "closer friends" were on his side and they are more than just some single leader whom he didn't even know well enough to tell why she was leader at all.

It seem like you perceive a set of rules regarding leadership and governance, which is good. However, you seem to have missed the idea that as one person, you cannot be correct 100% of the time in your decisions to improve the guild. Yet, you fail to listen to the will of the members, stating that that would be a marionette instead of a leader. We believe that part of leadership does include making decisions. However, we seem to differ in opinion in that we believe leaders should make decisions in the best interest of the people, and follow the will of the people. The recent actions you have conducted prove that you certainly do not believe in the same style of leadership as us.



Arianamue wrote:Now I know that none of you would have wanted Resonanze guild to be disbanded. So I pulled out a bluff to force the "closer friends" to take actions. I was well aware that this would shock far more than the group it was aimed at (and of which I could not definitely tell it's members). I was also aware that I would probably lose more actually not involved members than by giving in. but I opted for collateral damage, hoping it could be repaired later somehow.
In fact I was ready to sacrifice my dearest to save my equally dearest. The only difference between the two is numbers and philosophy. Remember this when I come to comment on your guild's name.

You say you consider us dear and important to Resonanze, and yet you clearly formed the plan with the intent to ferret out those who opposed you. Following that, you took action to get rid of those people, cleansing the "poison" and leaving Reso without the group you did not like. Yet the leaders of Resonanze have clearly stated on various occasions that it's unfair to remove someone from the guild solely because other members do not appreciate them. Yet isn't threatening to the destroy the guild in a ploy to get rid of those you thought were defiant to you worse than removing a member many other members do not appreciate? Threatening to break up a guild and its members is a betrayal of trust, and denying the guild's wish to pass the guild on, citing your ownership of it, added salt to the wound. That alone caused many members to leave. After breaking our trust in you as a leader by threats, you then revealed that the whole thing was a lie. We certainly agree that threatening and lying should never be part of leadership. There are many other courses of action a leader could've taken in this situation, some which were suggested during the meeting, and others in our previous post. We recognize that you have tried other courses of action in previous incidents, which we appreciate. However, just because one solution is not ideal does not mean that all reasonable solutions should be given up for the extreme.



Arianamue wrote:From the moment when Crayl said he would know what to expect from that meeting I knew he would leave Resonanze at the end of it. And I knew it would be to save the guild. A noble sacrifice and I mean it. What he did there is the most noble thing anyone can do in my eyes. It is the essence of Altruism, the term. But it is also the very last resort and always should be.

You label Crayl leaving the guild as an act of altruism. We must then question why this act of altruism was taken as an act of intimidation, one which forced decisions upon you. He was leaving in order to cause minimal damage to the guild as a whole. You already knew his intentions, yet instead of aiming to solve the problem with minimal damage alongside him, you openly admit that you “opted for collateral damage”.



Arianamue wrote:Unconsciously he noticed that I didn't just say I would dissolve the guild but that I added "unless anyone provides another solution".

You stated nothing of the sort in your proclamation of the decision. That is, we assume "That's it, do as you like, I'm done." and "Any reaction?" signaled the ending of this declaration. You responded once with "unless someone finds a way out, yeah, that was it" to questions confirming if that really meant the end of the guild. And solutions were provided, and debated upon, but were rejected by you. So not only have you confirmed that dissolving the guild was the only solution, you also refused efforts to alter the decision.



Arianamue wrote:I offered a way out and he took it without hesitating, although he couldn't achieve to make me the actual bad guy by making me kick him. His tries to make me look bad (when I actually looked much worse already than he would have hoped and was even aware of that and feeling miserably about it), those tries actually convinced me that there was a plot to make me look bad in a way that the guild would agree to get rid of me as a leader. I started to suspect that Crayl only threw a grenade way too early to make a slow and subtle discrediting work.

It is one thing to talk about facts and personal beliefs and feelings, and quite another to pin feelings and motives onto other people and making it sound like the truth.

At first you described his leaving as an act of altruism to save the guild, yet now you contradict that by stating his actions as an attempt to displace you as the leader, which is not altruistic at all. This is plausible to believe if one thought replaced the other through realization. However, you later comment on how you loved the guild name (which, if it was a plan to get rid of you, again would not be altuistic). Furthermore, nobody other than Crayl himself would know his motives in leaving the guild. Stating that he did it to make you look bad, and hoping you looked much worse, are completely unfair and unjustified accusations. Additionally, drawing upon that to be convinced of plots, of others also planning on making you look bad is completely ridiculous. You were even convinced that not only was there a plot, there was a carefully laid out one to "make a slow and subtle discrediting work" in an attempt to overthrow your leadership. Please. We are not as intelligent as those spies on TV. Intrigue is not our profession. Suggesting that we were plotting in an attempt to discredit you and get rid of you as a leader is rather insulting. Claiming simultaneously that you love the altruistic history of our guild and the non-altruistic schemes is incomprehensible to us.



Arianamue wrote:I even learned why such a plot could have been made: Because apparently some or all of the "closer friends" found that I disregard their feedback (which must have been so quiet that I failed to notice), that I work out my Officer like a slave and only randomly show up for an act of tyranny and that I am not in any way approved as a leader (by anyone important). I also learned that people saying they would like me only do so because they fear to get kicked if they don't show up just to tell me something that makes me feel wanted.

Please do not put words into our mouths. Anything you have said there with an inkling of truth would be us suggesting you do not take feedback into proper consideration. And by saying you are not approved as a leader by anyone important is insulting to existing Reso members. We don't believe that members have some hierarchy of importance within a guild.



Arianamue wrote:Further I learned that being honest is nothing that fits a leader but that at the same time all my words are taken as lies anyway and that my continued offer of friendship to Altruism guild is taken as an offense.

Please, taking incidents and feelings from an individual member of Altruism as a basis to describe the feelings of all the people in Altruism is unfair, especially as the said member does not officially represent the guild as the Leader or Officer. In addition, the conversations between you two have been told to consist of many insults and harsh feelings from both sides. It is unfair to take one-sided statements from a two-sided argument as representation of an entire group of people. We decided that it would be unreasonable to take most of the angry statements said in those arguments seriously, thus the majority of those arguments were not shared between Altruism.



Arianamue wrote:Crayl may not represent Altruism guild, but I'm pretty sure he has his ideas from said "closer friends" and their chats. Views like that don't grow overnight. And they are actually the result of a lack of will to even try to get to know me personally as well as to learn more about Resonanze and me and why I consider it My guild.

Again, it is unreasonable and unfair to make assumptions without basis. You divide us again, accusing us of plots and conspiracies.



Arianamue wrote:I consider Resonanze my guild because I took leadership very reluctantly. I saw two leaders come and go when Hadex couldn't stay for personal reasons. I was asked three times to take over but refused. At the third time I agreed to be Vice (that is Officer in NA) and when Mar (the leader back then) couldn't stay either I had barely a choice but to fill the position. I knew I would cause and get into trouble a lot, because I am unbearable when I have to use the power I am granted.
I decided to do my very best not to lose my temper and to learn to be a leader without enforcing anything beyond the basic rules of common sense in a social environment. I also did an oath that this change of leaders would be the last one and that I would warrant stability in that matter.
Events followed that made me break that oath.
I got locked out from Mabi for 3 months and there was no choice but to elect a new leader. The best person for that was Kasia in my eyes as well as in many others'. For me she was the best choice just because she always had the guts to oppose me when she felt I decided wrong. Her feedback was the most valuable thing a leader could wish for. It was for me a sign of trust as well as a sign of her care for the guild's prosperity. I tried my best to support her via the forum while I couldn't log on. When I finally could log on again, the uptime of the server was down to a few hours each week.
Mabi EU got shut down some time after that and we had to migrate to NA.
It wasn't clear whether or not Kasia would go to NA as well, but it was clear that we would rebuild the guild here. When we were sure Kasia wouldn't follow too soon and we were still not actually allowed to play in NA, we decided to re-found the guild here a.s.a.p. Nax' and my son (in game) DJ was the one who did that. When his newbie premium faded he bought the service, because I had yet to find a reliable way to charge NX. We were doing the job of a guild's head tho even while technically DJ was the leader and we left him in place as long as he wanted to. In terms of recruiting and rebuilding he did a fantastic job but actually leading was never his thing and he even said so. Eventually he had to take care of real life matters and couldn't play much anymore. It would have been a waste to buy service for the few hours he could actually still play and so he appointed me leader one day before his last premium ran out. In a PM he apologized to put that back on me but actually it was silently agreed long before that I would take the position and renew my oath from before.
Because of that Resonanze is pretty much My guild. I ensure that it exists and is lead in the spirit that makes it this particular guild and no other kind.
It is each members guild because said spirit consists of the idea to have fun together, to profit from helping each other and to participate in each others fantasy life and development and most of all in contributing to make the guild and all its members become better steadily.

That history of Resonance/Resonanze is very touching, and we appreciate your attempts to save the guild. However, the history leads to some confusion in the present. Many people passed on the guild because they felt they were unable to lead it properly, one of them even citing that they barely had enough time to care for it. You state that the new leaders that were chosen were the best person in the eyes of both yourself, the previous leaders, and “many others”. The previous leaders had a different view on what makes a good leader, it seems. They gave up their position when they felt like they were unable to do a good job in it, due to a variety of perfectly understandable reasons.

People have a life, we get it. Some people have more gaming time than others. It's not anyone's fault they have little time for involvement in a game. But, can you say that you're doing a good job at being the leader of a guild when you can hardly participate enough to know about the members?

If you told people that you were too busy to take care of the guild, that you needed people to help you with certain roles, or even if you asked someone else to take the role of the leader, many would have complied happily. The guild means a lot to members too, not just you, Ari.

We are not sure what a guild means to you. However, to us, a guild does not only mean the name, or its leaders. A guild means the people, friends and family, within it. It's about the fun they create, and their interactions. It belongs to everyone. Even should the guild function be abolished in Mabi, this group of people would still have a meaning. It's about keeping everyone and everything in it together, not just some cheap name.



Arianamue wrote:When you, the leaving ones, came back to the meeting place to tell us we could stay on good terms, I assumed you meant you and Resonanze. I learned from your above post that you probably didn't mean the guild as such because you may still have thought it would be disbanded.

We meant for everyone that we had ever known within either guild to be friends, regardless of the name above their heads. We did not group people into “Resonanze” and “Altruism”, because we felt there were much more important things to judge people by. That became even more true when accusations from these forums began. We understood a basis for misunderstandings, and tried our best to resolve it. We do not love a guild because it is a guild. We love the individual people inside a guild, because that is what matters to us.



Arianamue wrote:Strange enough, almost anyone present except those who quit Resonanze bombarded me with PMs asking whether I was serious or commenting on how drastically a measure that was. And all got the reply that it wouldn't really happen as soon as I was sure that those of the present ones who belonged to the "closer friends" were gone. I really understand that Vonya left too, because she must have thought I mean her too when I said I was forced. At that point I could only hope to explain to her later and make her understand. I had no chance to send her a message because of the ongoing argument as well as all the PMs that reached me.

We do not find this strange, as we truly did not expect our leader to lie to us. Nor did we think it was a joke after so many confirmations of the disbandment, as well as ensuing arguments from that.



Arianamue wrote:Anyway, you said you would make your own guild and that we would stay friends. Relieved I added one after the other to my friends list just to make sure I didn't miss anyone in there. Rather happy to see you willing to stay on good terms after all I even let a "lol" out when Levont suggested Altruism as the guild name, because I found that a rather well considered name after Crayls selfless sacrifice and not yet known to you at that moment I had shown some Altruism myself, like I explained above.
So in a metaphoric sense Altruism gave birth to your guild. What better reason for such a name could there be? How many Mabi guilds could say their name has such a deep meaning?
You preferred to take offense again, thinking only the worst of me. And Levont replied to my congratulations at becoming leader by asking how I meant my comment on the name, only to remove me from her friends list right after. I'm not even sure she waited for my explanation or if she did, that she read and understood it. It was pretty obvious that it was unthinkable to her that I could honestly be glad for her. She wanted to feel insulted and none of my words could have changed that.

Crayl's actions were certainly not the reason our guild was named Altruism. Your "LOL" seemed like mocking laughter in that context, especially due to your theories of us scheming to overthrow you, which is definitely not altruistic. However, we understand that this appears to be a misunderstanding between us, and we would be glad if messages about our guild name were in a good view as opposed to sarcastic.



Arianamue wrote:That and Crayls mocking attempts didn't support the feeling that Altruism would like to be friends with Resonanze either, nor did Levont's words that both guilds can not be friends.
The latter though is only what I have heard from Naxos and I really hope it was just a typo.

Again, we hope that the words of one member, especially a member with whom you repeatedly have conflicts, will not represent Altruism as a whole to you. We cannot imagine a one-sided argument, so it is unfair to call one side out on his behaviour.

In regards to Levont's words, we unfortunately feel that this is just another example of miscommunication between the leader and officer of Resonanze. Altruism works differently, in the sense that our leader is not the sole decision maker. Levont does not make the final decisions, and she is well aware of this. We have a group of senior members who decide as a counsel group. What we decided on was that our two guilds would not be official partnered guilds, as had been brought up as a possibility before. We felt that a partnership at that particular point would be awkward with the existing tension between us. At no point did we say there could not be friendship between the two guilds.



We came to this thread seeking for peace between the members of our guilds. We aimed to clear up misunderstandings and defend allegations. We are happy to announce that we feel we have achieved our goal, as we were able to clear the misunderstandings amongst certain members. We hope that the members of our guilds will continue to be able to get along as friends, and hope that the leadership of both, as well as individual differences, will no longer attempt to tear them apart.


This will conclude our statements as a guild to Resonanze on this matter, as we feel like we have addressed most of the issues. Members are of course welcomed to state their feelings, but they will represent the feelings of individuals. If Resonanze has any questions for Altruism, or want any clarification on matters, please contact the Leader Levont, or the Officer Levvy.


Thank you once again for reading, and may you have wonderful times in Mabinogi.
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Re: Clearing the Misunderstandings with Altruism

Postby Levont » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:13 am

I, too, am making my final post on these forums. Resonanze was a great experience for me and has been to date, one of the best guilds I've ever been in. I thank it for introducing me to other members who have become my friends. I wish everyone a good experience regardless of what guild they are in now.

Yours Truly,
Levont
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